Messenger Chats: The Shooting on the Rust Set.
Shawn St. Peter and Josh Ayer • Nov 08, 2021
A Conversation Shawn and Ras had on Facebook Messenger
The website The Ringer is run Bill Simmons. Bill spent a long time working for ESPN.com and before he parted ways from them, had an offshoot website called Grantland. Bill really only does podcasts at this point, but throughout his time at ESPN, he started as a columnist. One of the more interesting columns he would put up were e-mail exchanges between him and interesting people that he was friends with. Malcolm Gladwell, Kirk Goldsberry, Wesley Morris and Chuck Klosterman, among others.
Because Ras and Shawn are generally political (and non-political) nerds, we tend to have conversations about things outside of the weekly show - usually on facebook messenger. Most of these conversations are interesting to no one but us. Some of them are worthy of sharing, so in the spirit of Bill's old e-mail exchange columns, we've decided to share them on the blog.
This week, we got to talking about the case of Alec Baldwin shooting one of the directors on the set of his movie Rust. Most of the details have been discussed ad nauseum on the internet already, but Ras saw that the the attorney for the armorer Hannah Gutierrez-Reed was suggesting that sabotage may be the cause of the live round. The following is Ras and Shawn's messenger exchange, lightly edited for grammar and spelling.
Because Ras and Shawn are generally political (and non-political) nerds, we tend to have conversations about things outside of the weekly show - usually on facebook messenger. Most of these conversations are interesting to no one but us. Some of them are worthy of sharing, so in the spirit of Bill's old e-mail exchange columns, we've decided to share them on the blog.
This week, we got to talking about the case of Alec Baldwin shooting one of the directors on the set of his movie Rust. Most of the details have been discussed ad nauseum on the internet already, but Ras saw that the the attorney for the armorer Hannah Gutierrez-Reed was suggesting that sabotage may be the cause of the live round. The following is Ras and Shawn's messenger exchange, lightly edited for grammar and spelling.
Ras:
Interesting. Now they think that there was a saboteur who replaced the dummy rounds with live ones. The day before the shooting, a bunch of crew walked off over poor working conditions. And the armorer was also working as the 2nd props manager for free.
Shawn:
I had heard about the safety issues and the crew walking off. This is an interesting take by the lawyer, but IMO, I still would blame her if it was sabotage- she needs to create safer conditions. And from what I heard, the prop guns can only take the special blanks and wouldn’t use real bullets and a real gun couldn’t take the prop bullets. So if they were using blanks and not prop rounds as the “dummy” rounds, this theory is plausible but still leaves the set open to this kind of issue. There is still an issue with the safety that armorer and Baldwin had in the set.
Ras:
Yes. Some films do use real guns with standard blanks. And there are now blanks that look like live rounds. The problem with the equation is that there were a couple of hours that the loaded firearm was left unattended, and that's where the safety issue comes in; it should have been secured in some sort of lockbox. But if they can identify a saboteur, or if the defense can convince the jury that it's possible there was a saboteur, then that means that mens rea lies with the saboteur, which would shift the actual murder charge, leaving only a negligence charge or some such for the current defendants.
With the walk-off, an unidentified saboteur has means, motive and opportunity.
Means: walk-offs are chaotic, and often not everyone who walked off is accounted for, meaning that their credentials aren't always revoked or confiscated. Thus, someone could access the set.
Motive: walk-off for bad conditions, obviously.
Opportunity: unsecured unattended hot firearm. And I'm guessing that, if they left a hot weapon lying around for hours, the ammunition boxes probably aren't exactly in the ft knox basement either.
It is plausible. If they can present it properly, it has a high potential for creating reasonable doubt.
It might be possible to link the armorer to the guys who walked, if the evidence is there. It would likely be possible to give her motive, too, as she wasn't being paid for the 2nd prop master role. But ultimately that doesn't matter, if they can create the possibility of an intentional saboteur.
this is why I love law. So logical.
Shawn:
I don't know what shes being charged with...so that will make a big difference. But in New Mexico 1st degree murder includes "(3) by any act greatly dangerous to the lives of others, indicating a depraved mind regardless of human life." So, regardless of the possibility of saboteur, a competent prosecutor could argue that leaving the gun unsecured for that time, or the ammo, allowing it to be tampered with, classifies. I think that's harsh in any case. More likely, she would be charged with Involuntary Manslaughter, which is applicable and likely the charge either way. I can't imagine that a prosecutor in this case would push for murder in for the armorer regardless. Even 2nd degree would be a stretch. If I'm the prosecutor, I charge 1st, but only to get a plea on involuntary manslaughter. with a recommendation for no time and a max fine ($5K). I also charge the producers with some kind of reckless or negligence charge and get a max fine out of them. Unless the armorer knows something directly about a saboteur, it seems like a weird strategy by her lawyer.
Ras:
Be a really hard sell on the depraved mind, the standard for which the standard is "The condition of mind described as depravity of mind is characterized by an inherent deficiency of moral sense and integrity. It consists of evil, corrupt and perverted intent which is devoid of regard for human dignity and which is indifferent to human life." They'd have to show she was intentionally cavalier, and to get a jury to buy "evil" they'd probably have to show some kind of history to that effect. Murder 1 would be impossible even to charge; it would make winning a slam dunk for the defense and they'd happily go to trial on it. Murder 2 might push a deal, but I think (bearing in mind that we don't have or have any hint of what the evidence might look like), the saboteur argument will establish sufficient reasonable doubt that even that would be too hard a sell for a bargaining chip. My guess would be, assuming they find no hard evidence of an identified or unidentified saboteur, they'll charge reckless endangerment resulting in the death of a person, for the purpose of pleading down to reckless endangerment. No time; probation; fines; potentially the loss of her armorer's license, likely at the discretion of her certifying agency.
Shawn:
So New Mexico doesn't have a reckless endangerment law - that's why I think the Involuntary manslaughter is the charge - "Involuntary manslaughter consists of manslaughter committed in the commission of an unlawful act not amounting to felony, or in the commission of a lawful act which might produce death in an unlawful manner or without due caution and circumspection.
Whoever commits involuntary manslaughter is guilty of a fourth degree felony."
The max time is 18 months and a max fine of $5K. This is a slam dunk I think for the prosecutor. I agree with your sentencing on it though.
Ras:
Not necessarily a slam dunk, but I'm glad we agree on sentencing. There are a lot of things that could mitigate that charge, even aside from the saboteur=reasonable doubt argument. For instance, if the production company has as its procedure that the weapon be loaded and placed in a certain location, that could shift the blame, especially if she advised the company to change it and they refused, or if they threatened her job. Might be soft law, but in a jury trial, soft law can create reasonable doubt. If she placed it in a location that was attended at the time of the placing, and that attendant left their post without her knowledge, blame could shift to the attendant. There's a lot of ifs that will come down to the facts of the case, which we don't have. But I think even involuntary will be a tough sell beyond a bargaining chip; no one wants a manslaughter charge on their record, and there are so many other people in this case that she would be shoulder undue legal burden by taking it.
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Note – this article was written by ChatGPT. I asked it to write an explainer post for my website in the style of Malcolm Gladwell. As part of this week’s podcast, I had ChatGPT co-produce it with me. It came up with script suggestions. I asked it to help me write an explainer companion post for the website. I did not really like the first one it wrote, and so I tried asking for different types of articles, asking for a particular style(witty, snarky, etc) or well know writers (Bill Simmons, Malcolm Gladwell). The below is the one by Gladwell, which I liked the best.
I have made no edits.
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